JOIN
Get Time
forums   
Search | Watch Thread  |  My Post History  |  My Watches  |  User Settings
View: Flat (newest first)  | Threaded  | Tree
Previous Thread  |  Next Thread
<< PREV    [ 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ]    NEXT >
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by Petr) | Reply
We also go through the same process that you talked about NEERC to ensure correctness or do even more (The author do not only make the judge data someone else also makes it and then they are cimpared). I don't want to go into explanation still how that mistake in J remained, in a public forum because I am not a official representative to talk in a public forum.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by broken_arrow) | Reply
I didn't talk about problem preparation, I was talking about the actual contest duration. So I don't quite get why you say 'even more'.

If you really do the same, didn't the Runtime Errors and Time Limits raise suspicion during the first hour of the contest? If you just looked at the wrong testcase you'd see immediately it violates the constraints, wouldn't you?
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by broken_arrow) | Reply
In other words, your attempt to attack TopCoder is just insulting, because it's TopCoder who discussed its problems in public (and you've in fact provided a link to such discussion) and posts official testcases after all contests. While any means of discussing anything officially with ICPC is reduced to just emailing Bill, him answering in some vague way, and everything staying the same.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by Petr) | Reply
Sorry I misread your post and thought you draw all the test cases before the contest. In world finals we never go to automatic mode. Always judge manually.

I think there is no point in saying that you run your regional contest without any mistake. We (Me, Kisman and some other local persons) run the dhaka regional without mistake from 2003-2006. Only in 2003 there were some minor ambiguities. But that record did not save us from being associated with mistakes in the world finals. Although we both runs error free regionals our process of maintining correctness is different.

Strange run time errors occur in World finals any way because there are many weak teams. And we don't get to see who the submitting team is and be cautious when a very good team is getting RE.

May be next year we will be more careful. Because no mistakes have occured in recent times in World Finals and this may be the first since I had been a judge in 2003.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by darko_aleksic) | Reply
It is business-oriented, why do you think IBM keeps pumping money into it?


With an interview you get a short amount of time to both test and impress candidates to come to your company. At an event like the ICPC IBM has several days of interaction with the competitors to try to convince them to work for them. They haven't been making any money off of the world finals problems, test data, or solutions thus far, and I'd be surprised if they even owned the rights to these items. (EDIT: And to add-on, just being able to say that you're the sponsor of the premier university-level programming competition in the world is good PR)

Sure, the sponsors come into the deal from a business-minded perspective, but ACM and the other ICPC volunteers have purely academic interest. So my question still stands: why aren't solutions released? I see solutions being released only helping the community.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by Petr) | Reply
Well I did not attempt to compare ICPC and topcoder in any way it was what aussie's post did. And then I just pointed out a big mistake made by topcoder in 2002 to proof that everyone makes mistake.

I am not related to ICPC in administrative way (You won't find my name in the ICPC page). If you have any complains about DHaka regional problem that is only what I can deal with. I am not liable nor apologize on what Bill does. Even I have made complains about indian regionals to many people and got no feedback.

But I guess the main objective of ICPC is its growth to different countries and so they overlook regional lapses.

I personally do not support the idea of not publishing data. But the idea of not publishing data does not make me or other judges less careful in ensuring the correctness of my problems and that is what I was trying to say. May be I won't be a judge next year any way so I cannot influence on decision making issues.

-Shahriar Manzoor
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by broken_arrow) | Reply
I was not directly comparing WF with NEERC, nor was I saying that NEERC is perfect. I was just saying that at NEERC we try not to be too sure in our solutions and testcases, and explained what we do for that.

From your replies it seems like WF judges are themselves trapped in that 'traditions' thing. Can you tell your personal opinion - should the testcases and solutions be made public after the contest? And why yes/no? (EDIT. didn't see the other reply)

-- May be next year we will be more careful. --
That's exactly what's so bad about ICPC's refusal of public discussion. You can never tell what exactly is being done to make things better. Some judge (and many thanks to you for doing that) will discuss something but will never make any official statement. And that can easily be transformed into thinking that nothing is changing at all.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by Petr) | Reply
duplicate - deleted.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by Kawigi) | Reply
Yeah, I meant that per match or per problem the mistakes happen more often at ICPC than here. ICPC might have only 1 chance a year to get it right, but TopCoder also has ~50 chances a year to get it wrong ;).
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by Petr) | Reply
Well I did not attempt to compare ICPC and topcoder in any way it was what aussie's post did. And then I just pointed out a big mistake made by topcoder in 2002 to prove that everyone makes mistake.

I am not related to ICPC in administrative way (You won't find my name in the ICPC page). If you have any complains about DHaka regional problem that is only what I can deal with. I am not liable nor apologize on what Bill does. Even I have made complains about indian regionals to many people and got no feedback.

But I guess the main objective of ICPC is its growth to different countries and so they overlook regional lapses. And really during regionals 300 problems are produced within two months. The world on average don't have the quality to do this that is why it is hard o maintain the quality of regionals.

I personally do not support the idea of not publishing data. But the idea of not publishing data does not make me or other judges less careful in ensuring the correctness of the problems and that is what I was trying to say. May be I won't be a judge next year any way so I cannot influence on decision making issues.

-Shahriar Manzoor
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by aussie) | Reply
If by ICPC you mean ICPC regionals then you are right.

If by ICPC you mean only world finals or DHaka regional or neerc then you are wrong.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by broken_arrow) | Reply
-- Well I did not attempt to compare ICPC and topcoder in any way --

The phrase "But there is no mistake of the scale below in ICPC" made me think you did. Probably I should pay more attention to the smileys :)

Is the situation really that bad? If even the WF judges cannot influence the organizers, then who can? Or are you in minority among judges on this subject?
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by broken_arrow) | Reply
You're right, I haven't had anything to do with the world finals personally, so I'm judging them partially on my experience with the ICPC South Pacific regional (though I would certainly expect the world finals to be run to a higher standard).
May be topcoder make less mistakes. But there is no mistake of the scale below in ICPC :)

http://forums.topcoder.com/?module=Thread&threadID=160720&start=0&mc=61
That's funny, I was nearly going to use that as an example of how TopCoder handles mistakes that they do make better than ICPC does :). While ICPC often seems to just pretend that there was no mistake at all, TopCoder admitted there was a problem and re-ran the match.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by broken_arrow) | Reply
Strange run time errors occur in World finals any way because there are many weak teams.
I don't think 'many' seems to be the right word here :p
Anyway, one thing with ACM-ish contests is their real-time judging, which means any small problems suddenly become very large ones the longer it takes to fix them - it's a definite problem with the structure rather than organisers, unfortunately there doesn't seem any good way to fix it, so most ICPC/regionals are doomed to the occasional(?) bad problem.
Re: ICPC 2007 results??? (response to post by Petr) | Reply
No No No! The situation is not that bad.

We never tried that seriously to get the official data out because we are producing unofficial data anyway and maintaining correctness to our best level. But I understand that it is important for coaches and contestants for transperency.

I understand the emotion of gordon or other coaches whose teams suffered for the mistake to write something like "Trying to cover up mistakes". And I don't think he really believes that me or derek are trying to cover up things.

But after making efforts to publish unofficial data (and mentally supporting publishing of data) the "Covering things up" issue is not palatable to me.
<< PREV    [ 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ]    NEXT >

RSS